His belongings .........

[luckyladyb]

Hello everyone,
I guess I'm seeking advice?  Our son, Jason, lived in Virginia. We live in Texas. He was 31 and lived with his fiancee in a house they were buying together.
He died very sudden and unexpected April 28th.
The best way I can describe the relationship with his fiancee now is strained. In our eyes her grief quickly turned to greed.
Without Jason's income, she cannot afford the house payments, etc...
We received word from her attorney that we can "collect" our son's personal belongings August 11th.
We don't really know what that will consist of. She is taking most of the things he had before they met and also what they acquired together. She's taking his dog. She had asked others if they want any of his clothes, etc...
The closer it gets to the day that we go back into his house and get whatever she has left for us, the harder it is for me to think about.
We had our arms wide open for her after his death and all she thought about was that the quality of her life was never going to be the same. Literally, she said this over and over ........
She wanted to take over his business, she wanted his truck, his jeep, his motorcycle, his four wheeler, his tools, etc...  She told us not to touch anything.
When we left the funeral home after making arrangements for his services, before we were out of the parking lot, she asked who we thought his death was harder on, her or us............... my husband just answered that he thought it was devastating to everyone.
What do we do with his things?  Is there any way to make this easier??
Has anyone dealt with a controlling fiancee before??

[Karen Paul]

Wow! Bonnie, I'm so sorry things have gone this way and that Jason's fiance is reacting in this way. It is very hurtful at a time when you do not need any more hurt in your life. Not sure I have any "advice" for you, other than to ask do you (as his parents) have any legal rights that you may be unaware of in this matter? The first thing that strikes me is that she should not be in control of all of his things, they were not married yet. Why should she get to choose which of his things you receive?

As far as what to do with them, that is a very personal decision, but I would say if you can store them for now, it may be better to put off the hard decisions about what to actually do with them. Unless you feel up to going through it all..

My brother has moved three times since his son Chris died in 2003. The first two times I think his wife Gina pretty much dealt with packing Chris' stuff up. When Brian split from G last year, he had to go through some stuff and get rid of some stuff (bed, etc.).. but most of it he still has in boxes. He has now gone through some of it and pulled out things he wants to display in his apartment. He gave me a bunch of Chris' t-shirts and stuff to make a quilt for him, which I offered to do.. still working on that...

I'm so sorry again. I will keep you in my heart as you deal with this unexpected hurt and hard decisions.

luv and hugs, Karen

[Jeanneb]

Bonnie,

Man oh man, I'm sorry.  Bonnie I have to tell you I am one of the blunt ones on the board.  So I'm just going to write how I feel and hope I don't offend.

First thing came to my mind is what a b...ch.  Death brings out greed in a lot of people, put up your shields and try to protect yourself when talking with her.  The closest I've come to some of this is when my brother died.  The way we handled it was to step back and remind ourselves some of this was just stuff and it didn't really matter in the big picture.

By what you have written, I see that attorney's are already involved, that to me says a lot.  Is she dealing with you guys now by way of attorney?  You know here in Texas had they been living together they would be common law married, does that apply in Virginia?  You guys really need to ask yourselves what would Jason want?  Is there anything of his that you truly want?  Something that is special to you?  Is there anything that his siblings want?  Is any of this stuff worth a fight?

All of this is about you and your family.  How much strength do you have and is that worth it to you?  It is so hard once they are of legal age.  By any chance did he have a will?  I guess you really need to find out your legal rights which I'd probably assume aren't much.  If you talk with her, this sounds rather ugly, but make her think it is all about her and then manipulate the situation to try and get what it is you want.  You do what you feel is best with his things.  Is there someone in the family who needs a car, etc.? 

It may be that she just doesn't want to part with anything feeling that this is her only way to hang on to Jason.  It is just so raw for all of you involved.  You are really in a hard situation and I'm sending you strength to make it through.

Hugs,
Jeanne

[Marianne]

Gosh Bonnie,  I am so sorry that you have to deal with this.  I can't give you any advice as far as dealing with a fiance, but I can tell you that I can not deal with giving away any of Alek's things.  I did give his new snowboard to my nephew who just loved Alek so much.  He was so grateful and actually had his senior picture done holding the board.  That meant so much to me!  I gave his Dad some of his shoes and clothes - he said that he felt like a better person when he wore them.  That made me feel good.  Now, I can't part with anything else.  My sister had a garage sale, and I was trying to clean out the storage unit we rented after moving out of our house.  I came across Alek's DDR (Dancing game) pads.  They are big and bulky, so I took them over to her.  Then, the next day I woke up in cold sweats.  I just couldn't imagine anyone else dancing on his pads.  He was so good.  I called her just crying and crying.  She hadn't sold it yet and pulled it out for me.  It might sould silly to her, but I just couldn't part with it.

I know how you feel and I hope and pray that Jason's Fiance will open her heart and realize the pain she is causing you.  I have to believe that there is something good in her - otherwise, Jason wouldn't have picked her - right?  I will pray that her goodness comes out SOON!

Love you, and sending you strength!

[Wadesmom]

Bonnie, Jason's Mom,

I have no experience in this particular area, but I just wanted you to know that I'm thinking about you and I'm sorry that you have had to deal with this and that you must continue to deal with this tough situation.  I believe that you're receiving some good advice from the others that have posted. 

Keeping you in my thoughts,,,,,

Wadesmom

[Dena]

(((Bonnie))) We moved a few years after Josh died. It was terrible to try to pack up his stuff and attempt to condense things as much as we didn't want to. 


I am sorry that things are so strained with Jason's fiancee.  I would highly recommend consulting with a lawyer - that way you will know exactly where you stand from a legal standpoint.

I wish I could say something to ease the way for you, but there is no way of doing that.  This is going to be hard, but remember that Jason lives on in YOU- not in his things and this is something I had to learn.  I have some of Josh's things packed away in a tote and when I am ready to go through it again, I know I can. 

You will make it through and we are all with you.

Love,
Dena, Josh's mom

[AllysonD]

Well my brother died in April. He was staying with my mother to get physical therapy so a lot of his stuff was at her house along with some of it at the hosue he shared with his fiancee.

My mom has not touched the room he stayed in at her house. She has a sort of a shrine to him set up with pictures and all the sympathy cards she got. She stopped going to her weekly counselor because he told her to get rid of his stuff and clean out his room.

Is this healthy? Is this a way of showing grief? I think she is really in a very dark place with her depression (she had issues before he died) and I dont know if its good for her.

What do you all think, those of you who have been there?

My heart goes out to all of you who have lost a child. I have one daughter and cannot imagine the depth of my heartbreak if somethig happened to her.

[Judy, Dougie's Mom]

((((((Bonnie))))))

Your situation sounds so very difficult and I am so sorry. 

My feeling is like the others, talk to a lawyer and find out what your rights are and if you are entitled to his things, then I say............go and get them, put them away, and don't make any major decisions for at least one year.  This is a very difficult time for you all and I hate to think his fiance is coming from a place of greed, but it does sound like it.  She should be waiting to make any decisions too.

I know how hard this is for you but you have to find your strength right now, ......ask Jason to send it to you, it will come.

Hold on tight
Love
Judy

"MAKANA LIVES"
forever in my heart

[JONBOYS MOM]

Bonnie...Im not sure if this applies in your state, They are not married, Everthing goes to next of Kin, If she wants to fight it seek an attorney, find your probate judge,he in the end decides who gets what!!I hope this helped, My prayers are with you...


Jonboys Mom(Donna)

[luckyladyb]

You guys are so gracious.  I'm so glad I found this site.  I value all of your advice and support.
Jason and his fiancee owned the house together. She has right of survivorship. She owns the house and by default, things that are in the house. We could fight through our attorney. It would come down to proof.
I think part of my problem with "retrieving" Jason's belongings is that I also have compassion for his fiancee.  I'm very aware that she suffered a loss also. I will admit I was shocked at how quickly her thoughts turned to not the loss of his precious life but the loss of her quality of life.  (within the first 24 hours!)
And I know that Jason would say, it's only stuff.  Stuff can be replaced.
I think the attitude is what's so hurtful.  She would sell or give his things away before she would want us to have them.
She knows that we spent several thousand dollars on Jason's memorial and during the month we stayed with her after his death.  She used one of his credit cards that he had a card in her name issued. She shopped, had manicures and pedicures, went out to eat, took the animals to the vet, etc......  We inherited that bill because the card was in Jason's name.
We would love to have his dog.  She's moving into a smaller place with two boxers and two cats.  We thought that taking Jason's dog would help her financially and she would know that he had a good loving home and she could see him. 
We were going to try and buy the house they bought together.  She is letting it go to foreclosure and declaring bankruptcy.  We wanted to negotiate with the lender to lessen the short fall and then we would split that with her.  She tells a different version that makes us sound like we are heartless.  Basically that we want to purchase the house for nothing and stick her with the shortfall.
We loved Jason dearly and we were ready and preparing to welcome his fiancee into our lives.
Now, we're left wondering if she loved him for who he was or if she loved the life he afforded her.
And on August 11th, we will once again go to his house.  A house that was so full of his life, his laughter and his love.  We will see what she had left and we will pack what's left of his life there in boxes and we will store it away until we decide how best to handle it.
How sad is that??

[Donnys Dad]

Bonnie I am so very sorry you are going thru this with Jason's fiance.  I am not familiar with the laws in the State Jason lived so it is difficult to give reliable advice.

However, my Son Donny was engaged and lived with his fiance also.  We helped Donny buy his house by giving him a sizable down payment as things are so expensive here in New Jersey.  Before I wrote the check I asked him, "Donny, who's name will this house be in?"  He replied, "Dad I'm not stupid mine only".  Thank God otherwise she would of definitely sold the house and taken the profit.

Donny only had the house, which was beautiful for 10 months.  He broke off the engagement on Wednesday and took his life on Sunday morning June 13, 2004.  She had moved back to Rhode Island on Saturday night.  She would never work more than a couple weeks, Donny did all the cleaning in the house, cooking and worked two jobs.  I know she drove him to his drastic action.

She did come back for the funeral and put on quite an act.  I allowed her into the house to take what she wanted as I thought it was only right.  Donny did not have a will so I had complete control over his things.  After she took the things she wanted of his, including the bed sheets he slept on the last night (??) she went back to Rhode Island and we have never seen her again.

I can only tell you that I considered keeping his house for one of my daughters however could not do that.  It hurt so much going down the driveway as Donny and I spent so much time at his house as it was only 2 miles away.  The hardest thing I did was selling his house and cleaning it out.  I invited his close friends to take things they may want that would remind them of Donny.  The rest of the items we gave away.  I must say I wish now that I had taken more time and would of put the things in storage.  I kept many things that had great sentimental value to him and I and am glad I did.

Sorry I rambled on, but I have to agree with the others that suggest contacting an attorney if she will not cooperate with you, at least let you have Jason's dog.

Again so sorry you have to go thru all this.

Don Sr

[Paula, Tims Mom]

Hi Bonnie,
I am so sorry for this extra heartache.

I suggest you plan to go to the County courthouse while in Virginia and talk to someone in the Probate Clerk's office. Please!

You need legal advice because you are likely Jason's heirs by law, unless there is a will on file stating otherwise, or unless Virginia is a common law marriage commonwealth, and his relationship qualified for common law marital status.

I say this because, if she was able to run up debts in Jason's name after his death, and you were left somehow "responsible" for those bills, you need to protect yourselves from her ever being able to do this again!!!!  Or worse.

You should also get a copy of the title/deed/mortgage note to the house (these are public records, available at the courthouse), because if title is not as you believe it to be ( Joint tenants with right of survivorship)...... and IF she lets the house go to bankrupcty..... YOU could get stuck for the unpaid debt to the bank for Jason's ownership portion. And also for any unpaid taxes/ utilities etc

Once you get a copy of the title and mortgage note/ deed of trust/ documents on file, you should be able to contact the bank/lender directly and try to reason with them. (MOST do NOT want properties ot go into bankruptcy).

If you can make back payments you may be able to stave off the bankrutpcy, not for fiance but for your interests as Jason's heirs.   With any luck the lender is a local bank or at least a reputable mortgage company with a local lender in a real office who will work with you to salvage this- and to make SURE you as Jason's heirs are not held accountable for unpaid debts by this girl who is not a blood relative and who was grubbing for money before the funeral.

Who is the executor of Jason's estate?  By Virginia law, there has to be one. You need to find this out. Court will appoint one if no will.  The executor of Jasons estate should be safeguarding Jason's assets and paying his legal debts.  NOT YOU!

With the help of the Probate clerk ----- and a local Virginia attorney you need to retain (based on recommendations at the courthouse) ----- you might be able to buy the house yourself before or at the bankruptcy sale, then fix it up and re-sell it or lease to purchase or just rent it out.

Property has appreciated most places in Virginia- so it raises a red flag in my mind she would let it go to bankruptcy and ruin "her" credit, that she wouldn't try to sell it and get even a fifty cent piece of profit. I would hope she didn't obtain additional loans or mortgages on the house fradulently, and use up all the equity after Jaosns died.

This needs to be checked out.

If while you are in town you talk to a local Real Estate Broker (talk directly to the manager of the RE office, not a Realtor sitting on duty as a desk agent), you can get a free market analysis of what the house is worth as-is, what it would take to get it sold, and more help in finding a good local family/estate/real estate law attorney who deals in all the areas of law that affect your situation.  A good Realtor can also get copies of the title and deed(s) of trust for the house and information on the status of taxes and utility payments paid or not paid.  Maybe get you in touch with a local settlement company to run a title search on the house and see if liens have been filed by whom and when and for what.

In Virginia, I believe property tax biills are being sent out now, for payment by 1 October. They can help you at the courthouse.  They have probably seen this type of situation before. I hope you find some good people to help guide you soon.

God Bless.

[luckyladyb]

Hi Tim's Mom, Paula,
Thank you for the advice.  We just found out that the house was joint tenants with right of survivorship.  And the reason she is letting if foreclose and declaring bankruptcy is because she orchestrated a refinance and equity loan which according to our mortgage loan officer was "the worst loan I've ever seen". 
They received 80K in equity.  His fiancee couldn't account for the money.
We did obtain a copy of the loan papers and where debt is listed, she had 77K listed.  This was her debt.  Her name and her social security number.
She doesn't have that debt now..........
We are the executors of his estate and his heirs.  Because the house is hers, she has possession of his things.  When we left after his memorial, she changed the locks on the house.
We tried talking to their lender, Countrywide, and they told us to wait for a sign to go up in the yard.  We would have the same opportunity to buy the house that anyone else does.  They would not negotiate.
We'll see how this plays out.  Thanks for your advice.  I sincerely appreciate it.

Don Sr -
Thank you also.  Your son is so handsome and your love for him shines in your postings. We did contact a new attorney last week and we're waiting to hear back from him.  Our old attorney gave us conflicting advice and even encouraged us not to make too much of Jason's things so that we wouldn't upset her and she would be easier to deal with.  He seemed to think that obtaining his dog wasn't going to be possible since they lived together. 
I still believe that for her to take two boxers and two cats to live in a condo is not going to be a good thing. 
Thanks for your input.  I sincerely appreciate it!
Jason's Mom, Bonnie

[Katie--Adam's Mom]

((((Bonnie)))),

I have not been through this but wanted to say how very sorry I am for your loss of your handsome Jason and for all you are going through now.  I hope that you are able to work something out so that you can have some special things of Jason's.

Love and hugs,
Katie

[Paula, Tims Mom]

What a mess. This must be so very hard for you and your husband.

It sounds like you are getting advice from a Texas attorney but every state is different and I still suggest you go make some contacts, and get some local attorney names,  at the County courthouse while you are in Virginia.

There are two kinds of property- real property (land,  the house, and everything that was "attached" to the house such as fixtures, appliances, and improvements) - then then there is personal property. Fiance inherited the real property.

But unless there was a will (which your husband would have filed) she did NOT inherit the personal property, which inlcudes furniture, clothing, jewelry, antiques, sporting equipment, vehicles...and the dog.

Your husband,  as Personal Representative for Jason's estate, is required by Virginia law to make an inventory of all property of the estate.

So, have your attorney tell HER attorney that you either REQUIRE an inventory list for the estate, or you will be PREPARING one for the court on August 11 and will expect full cooperation.

Does your husband have an appointment letter identfying him as Personal Representative? My husband got this through the our County courthouse (Maryland) when Tim died, my cousin, an attorney told him how to obtain and file it.

Fiance changing the locks - the day after the funeral no less - and communicating with you via her attorney- is odd and offputting. Not to mention her mortgaging the house to the hilt with huge debt she does not now intend to even attempt to repay - and even charging items on a joint credit card after your son's death and sending you the bill.

Did you know that in Virginia law (a very conservative commonwealth) not only is there NO common law marriage, but it is illegal for unmarried couples to live together? (no one enforces it)  Her legal standing to speak for Jason's estate - much less her claim on his Personal Representative- is NIL.

So I'd also suggest that your husband, using his standing as Personal Representative for the estate, get a copy of Jason's credit report and - (with the guidance of attorney to protect you from being hounded by creditors) -  and see the status of every bank accout in Jason's name, be prepared to document the decimation of funds from any bank account jointly held, close every open account in Jason's name and notify every creditor of every joint account to remove Jason.

There are legal means to post public notice and to remove Jason's estate from any further obligation for Fiance's bills, including her legal fees for this bankruptcy and the inevitable claims by some of the creditors she is stiffing.  If there are any vehicles in Jason's name,  or expensive or sentiment items, the court can tell you how to re-title vehicles with yur PR letetr, and how to take take posssession of the personal property.  Even the dog (personal property) if he was Jason's dog. (her condo association no doubt has clear limits on the number of pets she can keep, they all do)

Sorry about CountryWide mortgage- they used to be reputable. Usually they don't put a "sign" on foreclose property unless they plan to list it with a Realtor- another reason to make contact with a local real estate broker (not a desk realtor or a name from a sign- a "real office Broker-manager" from a big company like Long and Foster or Coldwell Banker,  as in experienced with foreclosure and pre-foreclosure) and tell them you are interested in THAT house and need a Buyer-agent (magic words). They will dig out the scoop for you.

I will be thinking about you. The actions of this girl-woman just make me so sad and angry.